Audiobooks | Cate, Kate, Kim, & Dillon

The consumption of audiobooks continues to rise with each passing year. Originally created for visually impaired veterans, "talking books" are now enjoyed by a wide spectrum of readers. Tasks such as driving, cleaning, and exercising become significantly more engaging with the accompaniment of an audio book. In today's conversation, Cate sits down with Kim, Kate, and Dillon to discuss this growing trend among readers. They'll explore topics; such as, narrator quality, multi-tasking while listening, and stand-out audiobook experiences. They'll even answer the persistent question, "Do audiobooks really count as reading?". It's safe to say that librarians have strong feelings about this debate! 

Audio Book Recommendations 

 The Wizards of Once Series by Cressida Cowell narrated by David Tennant 

Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders (166 person cast of narrators) 

The Hobbit by J.R.R. Tolkien narrated by Rob Inglis and Andy Serkis 

Intro Music by nikitsan

Transcript

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Audiobooks Ep

Cate T: [00:00:00] Cheers. Welcome to Top Shelf with the librarians of Russell Library. I'm Kate Tsahalis, joined by Dylan 

Dillon: Hello ... 

Cate T: Kim 

Dillon: Hey ... 

Cate T: and Kate. Hey. Thank you for joining us today. On Top Shelf, you'll hear about compelling reads from the people who know books best. Our librarians will share titles that connect to a unique theme each episode.

Cate T: We'll offer glimpses into what we're doing here at Russell Library, and hopefully spark inspiration to bring to your community. We are very excited to turn the page with you. The focus of today's show is audiobooks. We've decided to cover this topic because the [00:01:00] popularity of audiobooks has really exploded in recent years.

Cate T: Access to smartphones and busier lifestyles have turned this way of reading into a huge market in the publishing world. But long before smartphones and toxic multitasking lifestyles were the norm, audiobooks entered the scene. So before we really get this conversation going, let's ground ourselves in a little audiobook history.

Cate T: Can any of you guess when the first audio style book was published? 

Kim: Ooh. Um, 1975. 

Cate T: Okay. What do you think, Kate? Oh. Um, I don't know 1980. Dylan? 

Dillon: I don't know. I think... 'Cause I had, as a kid I had cassette audio tapes of, um, the Bible- ... narrated by James Earl Jones. I'm sorry, I'm laughing. Oh. God himself. Yes, God, God himself, um, James Earl Jones.

Dillon: Um, and I was- I w- I was born in '98, [00:02:00] showing 

Kim: my 

Cate T: age. So young. Yeah. 

Dillon: Um, so, it has to have been b- you know, maybe 

Kim: the '80s, maybe '

Cate T: 85. I don't know. All right. It was actually 1931. 

Kim: Okay. 

Cate T: Ooh. Yep. So the Library of Congress and the American Foundation for the Blind collaborated to create the Talking Book program.

Cate T: Interesting. And this was to provide reading materials to blind adults and visually impaired World War I veterans. Oh, wow. Isn't that crazy? That's 

Kate MB: cool. Wow. 

Cate T: Yeah. Yeah, so as Dylan said, cassette tapes were what we kind of remember- Mm-hmm ... but that started in the '60s and '70s, and that was when the term audiobook was officially coined, and people without visual impairment discovered the wonderful world of talking books.

Kate MB: Nice. 

Cate T: By the '80s, people were listening to cassette tapes in their cars and their Walkman players so they could enjoy books on the go. Of course, you can only fit so much data on a cassette tape, so it- Yeah ... got pretty unwieldy at times. That's true. I distinctly [00:03:00] remember my dad shuffling through tons of tapes in his car for his commute.

Cate T: And then by the '90s, CDs entered the scene, which was a huge upgrade, but still a lot to juggle. This was very surprising to me. It was actually 1995 when Don Katz founded Audible, and I thought that would've been, like, well into- Oh, yeah ... the 2000s. It was '95, and so that got the ball rolling into- Interesting

Cate T: the world of audiobooks we know today. Mm-hmm. So obviously it's blossomed more and more with streaming services in recent years. So it's been, it's been a journey. Mm-hmm. It's been quite a journey. And now it's a journey we're on together. 

Kim: Mm-hmm. 

Cate T: So- 

Kim: Yes. 

Cate T: Kim- Yes ... I'm starting with you. 

Kim: Okay. 

Cate T: Can you tell us about your relationship with audiobooks?

Cate T: Do you engage with them regularly, or do you prefer the experience of reading a text? 

Kim: Well, overall, I think I have a pretty balanced approach to audiobooks. In fact, about half of what I read is in this format. So I particularly like listening to thrillers, um, humorous fiction, [00:04:00] and biographies this way. Um, the Finlay Do- Donovan series by Elle Cosimano is a great listen.

Kim: Mm-hmm. That was one that Kate, um, recommended to me. Yeah. And also, audiobooks are a solid gateway for books in a style that I'm not used to- Mm ... or with subject matter that, um, I find difficult. Um, you can't back away from an audiobook- No ... once it's rolling. Um, so, so the only way I was able to get through Dave Eggers' heartbreaking work Of Staggering Genius was by listening to the audiobook version of it.

Kim: Wow. I, I don't have a lot of patience for stream of consciousness on the page. Mm. Um, that was also when I learned to use headphones when I was listening to audiobooks. Uh, because when I was listening to it in my office, the narrator let out a string of expletives- ... just while my supervisor was coming in.

Kim: Oh. So, uh, fortunately, she had a good sense of humor about it. But yeah, it was a lesson learned, for sure. 

Cate T: How about you, Dylan? 

Dillon: Um, I've been big audiobook listener since I was a kid. Mm-hmm. Um, obviously started out with God [00:05:00] himself, James Earl Jones- ... narrating the Bible to me, which that tape, uh, the... There was a box with all the tapes- Yeah, mm-hmm

Dillon: for the whole Bible, Old and New Testament, and it was huge. It took up a huge section of our bookshelf. 

Cate T: Mm-hmm. 

Dillon: Um- Sounds 

Cate T: formative 

Dillon: experience for you. Yeah, it was a formative experience, yeah. Um, and then, um, I asked for a CD player for, like, my, like, 11th birthday because- Mm-hmm ... um, I had trouble sleeping, and so- Mm-hmm

Dillon: I started listening to audiobooks at night before bed to- Aw ... kind of help me go to sleep. Yeah. A lot of times I would fall asleep to the audiobook and have to fi- find my place the next 

Cate T: day. 

Dillon: Yeah. That's how my 

Cate T: nep- Yeah ... that's how my nephews went to 

Dillon: sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for 

Cate T: years. 

Dillon: Yeah. The Chronicles of Narnia- Oh, yeah

Dillon: and a bunch of, you know, older books, well, older for me. Still religiously themed. Yeah, it was really... I was very, uh, I was raised very religious in the South, so- Sure, yeah ... yeah, yeah. But I mean, yeah, that's 

Kim: where- Yeah ... I, I loved it from there. Now, by contrast, my first, um, audiobook was, um... Oh, shoot. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Kim: Nice. So if you wanna know about my formative text. 

Kate MB: Yes. 

Dillon: Yeah. Yes. 

Kim: Yeah. [00:06:00] That's- Yeah ... a little 

Kate MB: different. How about 

Cate T: you, 

Kate MB: Kate? Well, I just started getting into them in the last several years really as a way to kind of get to know our children's audio collection. So I, you know, it was just ... I started picking books that, like, just looked really interesting- Mm-hmm

Kate MB: and different adventures and stuff, and I just like to engage in stories in a different way with the audio that is different when you're reading traditional text. Yeah. Although recently I've gotten into more, back into more the, you know, like, the books and things like that, so. 

Kim: Mm-hmm. 

Kate MB: But yeah, it, I think audiobooks are just a very interesting way of engaging differently with a story.

Kate MB: So for me- I agree ... it was just in the last several years. No James Earl Jones, you know? Yeah. 

Cate T: No, no Bible 

Kate MB: bedtime. 

Cate T: Although, yes, I, 

Kate MB: I love his 

Cate T: voice, so. Who doesn't? Right, yeah. Who doesn't? All right, well, Dylan, I'm gonna start this one with you. What makes an audiobook experience enjoyable for you? Like, what do you look [00:07:00] for in a, a book in this format?

Dillon: I think audiobooks take mental strain off for me, like when I'm reading. So I kind of look for, um, a book with a narrator... Well, a book that I'm interested in, first of all, that I wanna read. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But the narrator has to, um, not come on too strong, but also have a little bit of, like, tonality in their voice- Mm-hmm.

Dillon: Mm-hmm ... the inflection- Yep ... do little voices for the characters that aren't, like, overly obnoxious. They're not trying too hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just, like, the subtle changes, even if it's, like, a man who is narrating the book who has to do a woman's voice, and just, like, pitches it a little differently- Mm-hmm

Dillon: doesn't do anything, you know, "Were they talking like this?" Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, nothing, nothing really obnoxious like that. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Dillon: I think that the, um... If you find an audiobook that you're, a b- an audiobook version of a book that you're interested in- 

Cate T: Mm-hmm ... 

Dillon: um, that has a good narrator, I think that's what I look for.

Dillon: The full cast, there's those full [00:08:00] cast audiobooks where- Yeah ... they have, like, different voices for different characters. Those are cool, and I, I do enjoy those sometimes, but I do find them to be a bit too distracting, too over-stimulating- Mm-hmm. Mm ... if that makes sense. Like, I- Yeah, yeah. Mm ... I'd rather just have one solid voice that does different tones and inflections for different characters.

Dillon: Yeah. 

Cate T: Yeah. I, I would agree with that, too. Mm. How about, how about the two of you? Do you look for the same thing, something different? 

Kate MB: I don't know. I, I agree with Dylan. I think it depends on the narrator. 100%. Also, like, is the author narrating it, or is it a different narrator? 

Cate T: Mm-hmm. 

Kate MB: Um, a couple of... So yeah, so I like an engaging narrator, and I, I think to your point, yeah, mult- like a big multi-cast is, can be distracting.

Kate MB: But, um, like, people like Jim Dale, who narrated- Mm. Yeah ... the Harry Potter books, so amazing, and I- Yeah ... I just looked it up before I came here. He did the American edition, but [00:09:00] then the, I guess there were two different auditi- editions, the UK edition and the American one, and Jim Dale does the American edition of Harry Potter.

Kate MB: Um, he's really good. And then I also liked David Tennant. 

Cate T: Yes. Yeah. Love David Tennant in all 

Kate MB: ways. He- Yeah. ... narrated- 

Cate T: Yes ... 

Kate MB: my favorite audiobook, and he was amazing. So yeah, I think it's, like, the engagement of the narrator- Yeah ... if it's a single narrator or the author, and the way they do their- 

Cate T: Yeah ... 

Kate MB: their voices, and the story, of course.

Kim: Yeah, bad nar- bad narrator, I'm out. Mm-hmm. I've, I've stopped books, like, maybe, you know, two minutes in- Me too ... when I'm just like, "I can't- Yeah ... coexist with this person- ... for seven hours. It's just not gonna happen." 

Cate T: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So Kate, I know that you have a particular audiobook that stands out in your mind.

Cate T: So what was it about this listening experience that was so noteworthy for you? 

Kate MB: Oh, well, [00:10:00] hilariously enough, I started ... It's a s- it's a CD, so I started listening to it in, um- 

Cate T: In 1995. Yeah. 

Kate MB: Right. Three years later, 20 years later, whatever. Anyways, so I was listening to it, and I, I was just the, the narrator was getting really into it, and suddenly there's, like, this- explosion, and I'm like, "Okay, what was that?"

Kate MB: I didn't know. I was... I freaked out a little bit, but it was the story. There's all these, like, different sound effects that come in, and David Tennant does such a good job with, like, this growly kind of- 

Kim: What 

Kate MB: is this book? Magical... Okay. So it's The Wizards of W- I'm, I'm showing it to- Yes. Yeah ... the team. It's called The Wizards of Once.

Kate MB: It's by Cressida Cowell, who also wrote How to Train a Dragon. Yes, yes. Oh. I'm like, "Why do I know that name?" Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's basically about two kids on the opposite sides [00:11:00] of the magical tracks. Oh. So- Oh, interesting ... they each have... And they, they're, um, they're becoming friends, and it's about their story, and it's about how they come into their, you know, their powers, or, you know, who they're supposed to be in.

Kate MB: It's just such a fascinating story. But I think what keeps me coming back to it was the narrator and all these things that are happening throughout the story. You're like, "Oh, my gosh," but it's so fascinating. It's so good- I don't think I've ever heard- ... 

Cate T: as a children's book ... sound effects in an audiobook.

Cate T: Oh, my gosh. 

Kate MB: I can't recall 

Cate T: ever experiencing that. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Kate MB: Yeah. 

Kim: I think audiobooks are getting more and more produced. 

Kate MB: Yeah. 

Kim: I mean, there are some, I think it was Fourth Wing, that has a version that is, is like a radio play. 

Kate MB: Wow. 

Kim: So lots of sound effects, lots of... Yeah. 

Kate MB: And the sound effects don't, they don't overwhelm the story.

Kate MB: Mm-hmm. I mean, they're not like, "Oh, my God, another one." It's just, it- Yeah ... it blends... He blends, like, the characters and the [00:12:00] storyline, and the sound effects are just... 'Cause you're going along, you're thinking, "I'm reading this really great story." And suddenly, boom- ... literally. Yeah. What just happened? 

Kim: Right. 

Kate MB: Um, but yeah, so that, that was, that was the audiobook for me.

Kate MB: I was like, "Oh, my God, I'm so in love." And I couldn't imagine reading the story now that I've heard it on the- Yeah ... audiobook 'cause there's so much that they do- Mm-hmm ... in the audiobook that is so amazing. 

Cate T: Well, now that I know David Tennant was the narrator- Yes. Yes ... that, that makes sense to me. He, everything he touches is gold.

Kate MB: Mm. 

Cate T: Yeah. How about you, Kim or Dylan? Anything that really stands out as a favorite read? 

Dillon: Going back to my childhood when I had that CD player- ... I listened to The Hobbit probably 100 times. Oh. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. Um, and the narrator for that was Rob Inglis, but there is also a version that I have listened to as an adult that is the, um, actor who played Gollum in the Lord of the Rings movie- 

Cate T: Uh-huh

Dillon: um, Andy Serkis. Andy Serkis, yeah. Yeah. He does not only The Hobbit, but also [00:13:00] The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion, and some of the other- He's incredible ... JRR Tolkien books, and he is incredible. Yeah. But, um, Rob Inglis was my childhood favorite- Mm-hmm ... audiobook narrator. I love that. And he did, like- 'Cause in The Hobbit there's 13 dwarves and- Mm-hmm

Dillon: Bilbo and Gandalf, and he did, like, all the voices for all of them. He... It was very incredible. 

Kate MB: Yeah. 

Cate T: That's, that's a good choice. Yeah. Mm. I remember my nephews listening to, listening to The Hobbit, and there's... Just remembering all the dwarves' names alone is crazy. Yeah. A lot of them are similar. Yeah. And then doing different voices, that's, that's impressive.

Cate T: It's almost a tongue 

Dillon: twister to, like, say their names- 

Cate T: Yes ... 

Dillon: one after the other. 

Cate T: Yes. Yeah. And then to read an entire book, that's- Yeah ... that's good. 

Kim: Yeah. So I brought Lincoln in the Bardo as one of my- Ooh ... favorite audiobooks. This one, again, it was kind of an odd concept. It's about the death of Willie Lincoln- 

Kim: Okay

Kim: um, who passed away during President Lincoln's... I don't know if it was his first or his second term, but... So President Lincoln's [00:14:00] son dies, and, you know, according... You know, it's historically accurate that he and his wife were just torn, you know. Yeah. They were very upset. Um, they never really got over this, this child's death.

Kim: And so, um, the book takes place, uh, in a graveyard. Oh. Uh, and President Lincoln is going to visit his son for the last time. And so, uh, all of the spirits around the, uh, graveyard sort of look in and comment on what they're seeing. Um, they can't communicate directly, um, with the president, but it's interesting 'cause it's people from all different backgrounds and social strata, and they're all kind of coming together to share in this person's grief.

Kim: And a- what I didn't realize at the time was it has a cast of over 166 people. 

Cate T: Holy moly. Wow. 

Kim: And to your point, Dylan, I mean, it's done so smoothly and so in such an integrated way that I didn't pick up on it at the time. I just thought it was really- Wow ... really well done. And it includes famous actors.

Kim: Nick [00:15:00] Offerman is in it. Oh, love him. Bill Hader is in it. 

Cate T: Yeah, 

Kim: yeah. Um, Susan Sarandon- Ah ... personal fave. 

Cate T: She's from my hometown. 

Kim: No way. 

Cate T: Just saying. Okay. Yeah, we went to the same high school. 

Kim: Okay. 

Cate T: Wow. Little side note. 

Kim: Yeah. I could see that. I could see the vibe. Yeah. But there were also people who were, like, friends of George Saunders' family, and people from, um, the publishing house.

Kim: And so he, he said he had started with this idea not realizing how complex it would be. Yeah. But he really did want that feeling of all of these different voices coming together, um, at this particular moment in time and in this particular moment in history. And it, it was, it was beautiful. 

Cate T: I've never heard of it, but that sounds- Ooh.

Cate T: Yeah ... that sounds pretty fantastic. So when you all are listening to your, to your audiobooks, do you tend to be multitaskers, or do you just kinda relax and settle in, or are you doing the dishes, driving, things like that? 

Dillon: I kind of save my audiobooks for moments when I [00:16:00] can multitask. 

Cate T: Mm. 

Dillon: Like moments that an audiobook can replace music.

Cate T: Mm-hmm. 

Dillon: Like in the car- Yeah ... commuting to and from work, doing the dishes, folding the laundry- 

Cate T: Mm-hmm ... 

Dillon: mowing the lawn. I do, um- 

Cate T: How do you hear it, mowing the 

Dillon: lawn? Yeah, I use noise-canceling headphones. 

Cate T: Oh, okay. Yeah, 

Dillon: noise-canceling headphones and a- Obviously ... quiet mower, I guess. Yeah. Um, when I, you know, have to pull out the weed whacker, then maybe not.

Cate T: Yeah. Yeah. 

Dillon: Tasks that can, don't, don't require too much attention. Mm-hmm. I, I kind of reserve my audiobooks for those moments when... 'Cause if, if you're doing a task that requires too much attention, you might need to rewind the audiobook. And if you're, you know- Rewind ... just sitting and listening to an audiobook and not doing anything, it's a little- Yeah

Dillon: under-stimulating sometimes. Yeah. You feel restless. Um, but you know, I don't know, maybe I need a rocking chair in the rain and- ... an audiobook. You know, I don't know. Maybe- I could 

Kim: see it, Dylan. 

Dillon: That might be a, a vi- and a cold cigarette. 

Kim: Yeah.[00:17:00]

Kim: Kind of flash forward to your, like, your elder years My years Like Dylan in his 80s. I 

Kim: can see it. I can see 

Cate T: it. 

Kim: Rocking chair, cigarette. Get off my 

Cate T: lawn. 

Kim: Get off my lawn. 

Kim: Get off 

Cate T: my lawn, I just mowed it. Mm-hmm. 

Kim: Just mowed it. 

Cate T: Get off that.

Cate T: How about you, Kim? 

Kim: Um, yeah, kind of the same. I, um- I do like listening to audiobooks when, uh, you know, I'm driving or, you know, doing something that doesn't q- require a lot of, um, attention, like conscious thought. If I'm trying to write something- Mm-hmm ... or if I'm really trying to focus on a work task, they don't, they don't work.

Cate T: Yeah. 

Kim: Um, one of the things that's interesting is sometimes I have a really hard time getting into an audiobook, particularly if it's a mystery. Like I'll, you know, I'll get all set up, I'll be listening, and I'll be like, 20 minutes will go by, by and I'll be like, "Wait, what happened?" So sometimes it takes me a couple of tries to actually get into it, but once I do, that's it.

Kate MB: You're good to go. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Kate MB: Yeah, yeah. I need to be a captive audience, but I consider driving [00:18:00] being a captive audience. Yes. Yes. So like when I'm at home and I need something more active, I listen to music, but there was one audiobook that I've had previously listened to the series, and I got to this one, and there I was just like, "Oh my gosh."

Kate MB: I, I, I could have multitasked when I was listening to that one 'cause it just got... I even tried it, rewinding it a couple of times- Mm-hmm ... and like I still c- I just lost the plot- Mm-hmm ... and I was like, "Okay." And then, you know. Yeah. So I could have done other things while I was listening to that, but I don't know, I think I need to be a captive audience so I can focus.

Cate T: Yeah, yeah. But 

Kate MB: driving to me is being a captive audience. '

Cate T: Cause you're not doing- Right ... anything else- 

Kate MB: Right ... 

Cate T: but driving. 

Kate MB: Right. Right. 

Kim: Yeah. A- although sometimes you do have to be careful when you're driving with an audiobook. Like- Mm-hmm ... I was listening to Fourth Wing. And there's a, a certain moment that if you've read the book, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Kim: I almost drove off the road. Oh. I was just like, it was suddenly so steamy and so like- ... hot. I was just like, "Whoa!" [00:19:00]

Cate T: And 

Kim: then there was an explosion. And then there was an explosion, and I was just like... Yeah. So, um- 

Cate T: Stay in the lane, Kim. 

Kim: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, be thoughtful. 

Cate T: That, that is true. 

Dillon: Driving can be risky because, I don't know, like my...

Dillon: I picture things in my head. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Dillon: So when I'm listening to an audiobook, a lot of the time some of the scenes are kind of playing out. 

Cate T: Mm. 

Dillon: Even if it's fuzzy, it's playing out in my head. Mm-hmm. I can kind of see what's going on. My wife does not see pictures in her head when she reads, and so- Really? ... I don't understand how she enjoys audiobooks.

Cate T: Yeah. 

Dillon: I might have to follow up with her again, but we've talked about this before, but I just... I don't get how she enjoys them 'cause she can't see the picture- 

Cate T: Right. Yeah ... in her head. Yeah. 

Dillon: So yeah, driving is, I'm more likely to listen to music than an audiobook, but- 

Cate T: Mm-hmm ... 

Dillon: because of that reason. Mm-hmm. 

Cate T: Yeah.

Dillon: I don't wanna drive off the road. 

Cate T: Yeah, you gotta be careful. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta be. Well, so that kind of brings me to the next question. I have a really hard time staying focused with audiobooks. Mm-hmm. Do you feel like you're able to hold that attention as well with an [00:20:00] audiobook as with a text? 'Cause I definitely go back and reread text when I've sorta- Mm-hmm

Cate T: zoned out, but with an audiobook, you, like you said, it could be 20 minutes and you're like, "Wait, what happened?" Mm-hmm. "Where did I go?" So how, how do you find that? 

Kate MB: Um, as far as the attention goes, or? 

Cate T: Yeah. Like what, what is your sort of natural level of attention, and does it impact your ability to really engage with an audiobook?

Kate MB: Oh, it's interesting 'cause I feel like when you read, when you read the traditional books- Like, the whole scope of imagination is wide open. 

Kim: Mm-hmm. 

Kate MB: You know? Like, who are these characters? You can imagine them really well, you can... Like, the setting and their voices. And with audio, there's... You know, it, it kind of gives you a little bit of that- Mm-hmm

Kate MB: but still allows you for a certain imagination, a certain amount of like, oh, you can still kind of imagine these people. So my level of engagement with audiobooks is, I mean, I think, again, I mean, I've been reading more traditional texts recently, traditional books [00:21:00] recently. Yeah. But yeah, I just think audiobooks give you a whole other level of imagination and- 

Cate T: And you're able to stay locked in.

Kate MB: Yeah. Actually, I think I'm able to stay more locked in with 

Cate T: audiobooks Okay ... 

Kate MB: than, than- Yes ... traditional books these days, 'cause sometimes when I'm at home and I'm reading and I'm like, "Oh, I'm distracted," and then- 

Cate T: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's how my husband is. 

Kim: And if I really love a book, I'll alternate between the text and the audiobook.

Kim: Yes. Like, I'll be reading- Mm ... you know, in the morning, and then I get in my car and I flip it to the audiobook. 

Cate T: Wow. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Cate T: That's impressive. 

Kim: Yeah. 

Cate T: That is impressive. Yeah. Yeah. 

Dillon: Yeah. As, as a Gen Z with brain rot, I, uh- I definitely struggle re- sometimes reading a tome- Yeah ... will be too... Like, it'll be too under-stimulating.

Dillon: Wow. Like, I need something, um, like a f- something to fidget with or- Mm-hmm ... like something to do. Mm. And I don't really wanna, like, walk laps around my house while I'm reading a book. Yep. So au- audiobooks kind of- Stephanie has done that. Yeah. Which Stephan- Stephanie has done. Um, which is... So [00:22:00] I think audiobooks kind of are an aid to someone like me who struggles with under-stimulation, you know?

Cate T: Yeah. 

Dillon: I can listen to an audiobook and fold laundry or cook- Mm-hmm ... or clean, you know. And so that, like, helps me get through a book 

Cate T: Yeah, I mean, I will find myself folding laundry... I, I don't fold laundry, my husband does that, but- ... doing dishes or- You lie ... something like that. Yes, I'm lying. Doing something- Yeah

Cate T: and I will... and I'll just forget that I'm listening to a book, so I really d- I need the actual words in front of me, unless the narrator is so good that I can't help but pay attention. Mm-hmm. 

Kim: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Cate T: So this is one I'm very curious to see how you're gonna answer. If you are... well, first of all, do any of you listen to nonfiction audiobooks?

Kim: Yes. 

Cate T: Okay. 

Dillon: I have not, no. 

Cate T: You have not? Oh, okay, so then I'm gonna direct this to you, Kim. 

Kim: Mm-hmm. 

Cate T: Will you listen to a nonfiction book if it is not in the author's voice? 

Kim: Well, you know, that's a really interesting question because I [00:23:00] like listening to autobiographies. Mm-hmm. And so some of my favorites have been read by the, the, the, the author, so Kelly Bishop's The Third Gilmore Girl- Mm-hmm

Kim: um, Viola Davis' Finding Me, and Leslie Jones' Leslie Fing Jones. Yes, yes. Which is, this is the second time I'm mentioning this book- You love this book ... in a podcast. Yeah. Well, and I especially loved the audiobook version of that one because she gets... she starts it and she's like, "Yeah, so I'm not gonna really follow the book at all.

Kim: I'm not reading it. I'm just gonna, like, tell you what I remember- ... from these stories." So it's just kind of like... and it was like, it was like a co- like a comedy routine. Yeah, yeah. It was amazing. So but it also made me feel like, oh, I'm getting something a little, like, extra. Yes. Like, this is a special experience that I can't get somewhere else.

Kim: But that said, I have read some biographies that weren't narrated by the person they were about, so a, a good example is Britney Spears, The Woman in Me. 

Cate T: Yep. 

Kim: That was actually read by Michelle Williams, and- I- ... part of the [00:24:00] reason was that the, you know, the material was so, um, sensitive that Britney Spears had a hard time reading it.

Kim: Yeah, 

Kim: that makes sense. 

Kim: Um, but, but when I was... I was so engaged with the story, and Michelle Williams was such a good narrator. Mm-hmm. And again, because she's an actress, I think she was really trying to be mindful- Yes ... of the cadences and rhythms of Britney Spears' voice that, uh, you know, that didn't bother me.

Kim: Okay. 

Kim: Actually, Britney Spears did, um, the intro to the book, and she has such a raspy voice that I'm not sure I could have listened to eight hours of it. 

Cate T: Oh, that's a good point. 

Kim: I like her music, but- 

Cate T: Yeah ... 

Kim: she didn't really have an audiobook voice. 

Cate T: So that's fair because I have listened to some nonfiction texts, and I'm like, "Oh, man, this person doesn't have a great voice."

Cate T: But if- if they have a podcast- Yes ... and I'm lis- and I'm reading or listening to their book because I like their podcast, if it doesn't show up in their voice, I'm- I'm out immediately. Yeah. I can't, I can't do it 'cause they just don't deliver it the same way, so. 

Kim: Yeah. Interesting. And nonfiction has come a- a long way.

Kim: I mean, it used to [00:25:00] be that... Nonfiction in general has come a long way, but the audiobooks have as well, whereas- Yeah ... I think there's a lot more, there's n- a lot more, um, connectedness- Mm-hmm ... between who's reading and what they're reading about. Yes. Um, that maybe before they were just like, "I am reading a text."

Kim: "Here's the information." You're like, "That's great. Thank you." 

Cate T: Yeah, but you lose all the feeling- 

Kim: Yeah ... 

Cate T: of it. 

Kim: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. 

Cate T: So one of the criticisms of audiobooks is that they don't really count as reading. Now, I know that as three librarians sitting here, you're going to have some feelings about this.

Cate T: So how would you respond to such a statement? 

Kim: I... Seriously? Yes. I just can't even- Like, why do people have to make reading as dry and as punishing as possible? Um- 

Cate T: Good question. 

Kim: You know, clearly I disagree. Um, and, you know, I was actually a little surprised 'cause I haven't really been engaged in this debate, but there was a recent study done at the [00:26:00] Harvard Graduate School of Education where they found- We 

Cate T: literally read the same study.

Kim: Yes. I did. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, she's like, you know, the way... Uh, so basically the neural pathways for- Yeah ... listening and reading are very similar. 

Cate T: Mm-hmm. 

Kim: And so, you know, people... In the study, people retained- Yeah ... and understood the same whether they were listening to a- Mm-hmm ... a text or reading it. And to me, that makes complete sense.

Kim: Yeah. 

Cate T: Yes. Yeah. And she ended that article... Actually wrote her name down, Nadine Gaab, Gaab, G-A-A-B. Yes. She's a cognitive neuroscientist. She said we all start as listeners to audiobooks because as children, we're sitting in our parents' laps while they read to us. Mm-hmm. So we've all been audiobook lovers at some point in our lives.

Cate T: Yes. And that made so much sense to me. But what do you guys think? 

Kate MB: No, I was gonna say, um, that we always tell people who come in to the children's room when they ask if, you know... We al- When they ask about what counts as reading, we always say [00:27:00] listening to a book, having somebody read it to you- Yeah. Good point

Kate MB: listening to a book read to you because- 

Cate T: Mm-hmm ... 

Kate MB: as when we were younger or when our, you know, families are younger, we're reading to them- Yes ... and that's listening, so that's the very start of, like you said- Yes ... an audiobook. So I think, you know, what I'm saying here is really goes along with what the res- what you- What the research states

Kate MB: what you were reading about, so. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I think that it's, it counts. It 

Cate T: counts. 

Kate MB: Yeah. Because you're being read to, so. 

Dillon: Yeah, my response is, "So we're gatekeeping reading now?" Yeah. Yeah. 

Kate MB: Exactly. 

Dillon: I think people will gatekeep everything. Mm-hmm. Um, and I... So I've always been a very slow reader. 

Cate T: Mm-hmm. 

Dillon: Um, which, you know, showing some vulnerability here.

Dillon: I read really slowly. Yep. And, um- So does my husband ... so, like, getting through a big book takes me a lot longer than it would for, like, my wife, who can read 100 books in a year, you know? Mm-hmm. She can read a, more than a book a week, which is crazy to me. Yeah. Cannot imagine [00:28:00] doing that myself. And, like, as a kid, I struggled with, like, my literature homework, you know?

Dillon: Mm-hmm. Like, reading the book and stuff like that on the, by the due date, I really had a hard time with. So, like, audiobooks were a big respite for me- Mm-hmm ... as a kid, and, like, I understand, I guess, from someone thinking that, like, "Oh, you didn't read it yourself. You just had someone read it to you." Like, I, I guess I can, like, see that, but to me it seems, um, petty, you know?

Dillon: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It seems- I 

Cate T: agree. 

Dillon: Yeah ... seems immature. Yeah. Um, especially if you're, like, you're receiving the knowledge the same way, you're engaging your mind the same way. Mm-hmm. It doesn't seem to be very, um- I don't know, founded in anything other than- Yeah ... spitefulness, so. 

Cate T: Mm-hmm. And, and gatekeeping. I mean, I- when I was a teacher- Thank you.

Cate T: Well said ... I had to sort of push back with some parents who were, who were not happy if their kids were doing audiobooks, or they weren't happy if their kids were reading graphic novels. And I had one student in particular who had pretty severe ADHD, and he [00:29:00] engaged almost exclusively with graphic novels because they worked for him.

Cate T: Mm-hmm. And I had to tell the parents, like, "Your son is reading. Let him read." Yes. He can read all the graphic novels. He can illustrate the novels that he, that he writes himself. Like, he is- Oh, wow ... engaging. Yeah. Uh, but they, they really... It took some convincing on, on, you know, on their part. So- 

Kate MB: And engagement is...

Kate MB: I think engagement is the key. Yes. You're engaging in words. You're engaging in stories, and, um, I think that's the bottom line right there. Absolutely. 

Cate T: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I'm glad we're all in agreement- 

Kim: Mm-hmm ... 

Cate T: about that. 

Kim: Yeah. Yeah, but a- apparently, like, 40% of the population- 

Cate T: Mm-hmm ... 

Kim: thinks that audiobooks are not true reading.

Kim: Yes. That was that NPR- That's what that article said? Yeah. Yeah. Or- The NPR... Yeah, it was... It, it- It was in that article ... was in that NPR- Yes ... but it was also done in- Yes ... the article, and I'm like, "Well, 40% of the people are wrong." You 

Cate T: heard it here. You heard it here. Well, thank you all, and let's stay tuned to hear what's happening Off the Shelf.

Cate T: So if patrons wanted to access [00:30:00] audiobooks at the library, at our library or something similar at another library, what would their options be? 

Kim: You wanna- So yeah. So, um, basically, we... At the Russell Library, we have two platforms that we recommend for audiobooks. One is Libby, which is a platform created by OverDrive, and the other one is Hoopla.

Kim: So basically, you, um, can download either of these apps on your tablet or your phone and, um, register with your library card for free, and then you have access to free e-books, but also free audiobooks, which are huge cost savings. 

Kate MB: Yes. 

Kim: Tremendously. Um, so, uh, both are easy to use. The borrowing, uh, models are a little bit different.

Kim: Uh, Libby is a little bit more like, um, borrowing an actual physical book. Uh, so you might, for something very popular, have to go on a wait list and wait until the person who, the people who have... are reading it are done with it before you get your turn. [00:31:00] Hoopla, anything that you find on the platform you can, um, borrow instantly.

Kim: And they have slightly different categories of, you know, groups of titles, so if you don't find something on Libby, you might find it on Hoopla, and vice versa. Um, and- We do ha- still have some books on CD, but a lot of, uh, publishers are not using that format anymore, so you won't find as many new books in the books on CD section as you will on Libby or Hoopla.

Dillon: Going back to how they work, um, Hoopla is like a subscription that a lot of libraries pay for, so we don't curate the collection that is on Hoopla, whereas Libby, we can buy digital licenses for- Mm-hmm ... audiobooks and eBooks that you can access through Libby. Um, there is also another app called The Palace Project- Mm-hmm.

Dillon: Yes ... um, which is free, so we don't pay for it or curate the collection on it. Um, but I think all libraries should have access to The Palace Project. It is like a nonpro- [00:32:00] not-for-profit. 

Cate T: Okay. 

Dillon: Um, and they do have audiobooks on there as well. 

Kim: Mm-hmm. 

Cate T: That's a good- Good point ... distinction about Hoopla and Libby that I didn't, I didn't know, that we, we are able to curate the Libby collection more.

Kim: Yeah. And, um, people in Middletown, um, actually have special access. We do pay so that certain titles will be, um, available to Middletown residents, um, exclusively. So if there's a popular book like a John Grisham novel, you as a Middletown resident are more likely to get it quickly, um, because we have special access to some of those titles.

Cate T: Okay, that's great. And it's also, I've been burned before with Hoopla because we can't curate it, where I have started to listen to something that was clearly AI-generated- Yes ... and I was like, "What?" And then I, I wasted a borrow because- Which is a 

Kim: good point. I- 

Cate T: Yes ... 

Kim: how many borrows do they get on Hoopla right now?

Kim: Four. 

Dillon: We get four. There are different tiers of subscription that you can pay for. So I know some libraries only get three a month. Yes. But we get four at Russell. [00:33:00]

Kim: Okay. 

Dillon: Yeah. 

Kim: Yeah, because- 

Dillon: Um, and there's a lot of controversy with Hoopla right now because of AI-generated content and not being able to curate- Yeah

Dillon: um, so. And it's 

Kim: very expensive. Or 

Kim: not being able to, not being able to eliminate those titles. Yes. I think that's another... I think there are ways, more way, there are ways to do it now, but at the beginning it was just a free-for-all. 

Cate T: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

Kim: And it is important to say that the library, um, the subscription models are slightly different, so, um, libraries pay for each download on Hoopla, um, as opposed to Libby, where, you know, as Dylan was saying, you buy a license that either lasts for a certain n-number of checkouts or for a certain amount of time.

Cate T: Okay. 

Kim: So, um, there are some libraries who unfortunately just can't afford to support Hoopla. 

Cate T: Mm-hmm. 

Kim: Um, but so far we've been able to maintain four checkouts a month. 

Cate T: Which is Which is a big deal. It's a big deal. I don't think people realize what an investment libraries have to make in order to be able to offer that.

Cate T: Mm-hmm. Thank you for that information. I think it is time to close the book on today's episode. If you like [00:34:00] what you've heard here, kindly subscribe to the show. This ensures that you won't miss any episodes. And if you have a moment, please rate and review the podcast. This helps other bookish people like yourself find the show.

Cate T: Tune in next time to find out what else is On The Shelf. Bye-bye. 

Dillon: Bye. 

Kim: Bye.

Dillon: The Russell Library does not condone smoking cigarettes.